Now That It Has Hit the Fan...

Plans, operations, and intentions

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Postby Matt » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:12 pm

If by 'daddy's girl' you mean Camissa, I don't see any evidence one way or another based on what you know. It does seem that when the pot boiled over, Thilisa stood her ground and her sister's feelings were immaterial. I might also point out how differently the two women handled the entire encounter.

As to waiting until after the wedding to marry Ewen, keep in mind the kidnapping. Thilisa might have been spooked by both that and the concern that her father might push her into a double-service with Camissa. Marrying Sir Ewen straightaway rendered both of those scenarios moot. It does elevate Van's question regarding Sir Rollard's putative suitor of course. That fellow - should he exist - might have been the Earl's preferred candidate.

Perhaps a more pressing question for the future would involve Karsin's decision to 'out' the marriage when and how he did, and his rather unorthodox surcoat.
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Postby Lord Ewen » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:22 pm

Yeah, I was thinking about the surcoat. A but presumptuous, no? He wasn't bold enough to stick the arms of Vemion on two and three, but the presumption remains fairly cloying I think. Nothing subtle about it. But, come to think of it, the offense is more directed at Thilisa and Ewen.

Perhaps I'll call his ass out. :evil:
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Postby Matt » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:29 pm

Sir Ewen wrote:He wasn't bold enough to stick the arms of Vemion on two and three

Heraldically wrong on every level. For one thing, marks of cadency do not carry over in a marshaling. Second, Vemion being the more important of the two titles, those arms should appear in 1 and 4, with the Ubael arms relegated to 2 and 3.

Sir Ewen wrote:Perhaps I'll call his ass out. :evil:
:lol:
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Postby Lord Ewen » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:42 pm

so the message of the arms is that Ubael is quartering his arms with somebody other than the family of his betrothed, someone of lesser significance than the barony of Uldien? Seems like there will be a line of folks wanting to call him out then.
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Postby Lord Ewen » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:12 am

Ok, look. Pulling my Oxford Guide to Heraldry off the shelf this morning did me little good, in part because of the early hour as well as my inability to do more than quickly scan the Marshaling chapter. But I've got a hunch that boning up on this stuff is unlikely to solve our mystery, as Ubael is doing something "unorthodox". As Matt indicates, if a man's wife is an heir he might quarter her arms with his, but firstly, Ubael is still unmarried, and secondly Camissa is not the heir, Thilisa is. And Matt says marks of cadency shouldn't carry into marshaling, which I'll take his word on, so the cadency mark shouldn't be there, period.

A change in the arms should reflect some real change in the family status, no? So we must conclude, I guess, that something behind the scenes is in the works.

What if, just supposing, Caldeth has decided (does he have the authority?) to strip Bastune of his barony and grant Kolorn to his soon-to-be son-in-law? If that were to occur, would Karsin the Younger then likely quarter his new barony in 2 and 3, leaving his birthright barony in 1 and 4? Could his surcoat denote a promise from the Earl, which is incomplete until the King confirms the grant (and presumably Bastune's forfeiture)?

Of course you'll have to tell me if such a guess is again heraldic illiteracy on all counts. I'm just not fluent enough beyond the basics.

On a similar theme though, it is noted that a husband can marshal his arms with those of his wife if she is an heir. Seems like Sir Ewen ought to do this, in defiance of the Earl's bluster about disinheritance. Can this be done without Vemion's permission, just on the strength of Ewen's marriage to Thilisa?
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Postby Matt » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:03 pm

Sir Ewen wrote:A change in the arms should reflect some real change in the family status, no?

Yes, though he might have just been donning the surcoat as a shot across someone's bow, rather than an actual change of arms. Other than the Earl or maybe Sir Rohn, it's hard to imagine anyone calling him on it.

Sir Ewen wrote:What if, just supposing, Caldeth has decided (does he have the authority?) to strip Bastune of his barony and grant Kolorn to his soon-to-be son-in-law?

Yes, the Earl can, but it would require the King to confirm since Kolorn is a titled nobleman. It should be noted that dispossessing a baron is a huge, huge deal.

Sir Ewen wrote:If that were to occur, would Karsin the Younger then likely quarter his new barony in 2 and 3, leaving his birthright barony in 1 and 4?

That would depend. Only at the royal level do arms accrue to the title. Below that, they are to the individual. Hence, should Greon Bastune be stripped of his barony, he is still a knight, and would carry his present arms as Sir Greon. It might be that Karsin would want to add an additional achievement to denote his new baronial status (his father still quick), and differentiate himself from Uldien. It would eventually make him the only holder of two baronies in Kaldor.

Sir Ewen wrote:Could his surcoat denote a promise from the Earl, which is incomplete until the King confirms the grant (and presumably Bastune's forfeiture)?

Possibly.

Sir Ewen wrote:On a similar theme though, it is noted that a husband can marshal his arms with those of his wife if she is an heir. Seems like Sir Ewen ought to do this, in defiance of the Earl's bluster about disinheritance. Can this be done without Vemion's permission, just on the strength of Ewen's marriage to Thilisa?

Yes, though it would need Sir Rohn's cooperation. The arms of Vemion would be quartered 1 and 4 with Ravinargh in 2 and 3. Thilisa's arms would remain Vemion, with the three point label of the heir. Also, if I were Sir Rohn, I would charge the full freight for a new achievement - £20.
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Postby Lord Ewen » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:04 pm

Matt wrote:
Sir Ewen wrote:On a similar theme though, it is noted that a husband can marshal his arms with those of his wife if she is an heir. Seems like Sir Ewen ought to do this, in defiance of the Earl's bluster about disinheritance. Can this be done without Vemion's permission, just on the strength of Ewen's marriage to Thilisa?

Yes, though it would need Sir Rohn's cooperation. The arms of Vemion would be quartered 1 and 4 with Ravinargh in 2 and 3. Thilisa's arms would remain Vemion, with the three point label of the heir. Also, if I were Sir Rohn, I would charge the full freight for a new achievement - £20.


Expense aside, it appears to me that there is a danger in not taking this step. To whit, as word spreads of Caldeth's repudiation and banishment of the newly married couple, attention will be paid in the high echelons of Kaldoric society to the public face Sir Ewen and Lady Thilisa present in the wake of their marriage. While Sir Ewen marshaling his arms as described above might give the impression of a cheeky or obdurate response to Declaen Caldeth, to refrain from taking such a step might tacitly give the opposite impression of irresolution or resignation. To the extent that I've given it thought, it seems to me that refraining from asserting this right might send the wrong message.
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Postby Lord Ewen » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:30 am

Matt wrote:
Sir Ewen wrote:Could his surcoat denote a promise from the Earl, which is incomplete until the King confirms the grant (and presumably Bastune's forfeiture)?

Possibly.


One final thought. A problem with the theory I floated above would be the mark of cadency on 2 and 3. To make everything fit, it would have to be Uldien himself who is being promised the Barony of Kolorn, and who is planning to marshal his arms to denote his new barony. That would explain Sir Karsin denoting himself as heir on 2 and 3, per my thinking at this point.

Or, in that case, would the cadency mark not bridge the entire arms, instead being duplicated in each quarter?

Anyway, just tinkering with my guess.

(Also, for those who haven't noticed, I updated the Minarsas Wedding list this morning to include some names we acquired in sessions 76 and 77. While we'll be leaving Minarsas soon, I believe the list might come in handy down the road.)
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