And Now What?

[Matt]

(we don't even know if his name is Lenesque, he could be a distaff relative who is related to the Baron).

Whoops, re-reading this I realize you weren't talking about the Baron but the Lenesque. However, to address this question, Sir Auram called him "a Lenesque" which means that's his name.

[Imarë]

I was not meaning to imply that the Baron was fomenting a rebellion on his own. I was suggesting that he was giving money to someone who would be in a position to start one (now or in the future).

The reason I brought up succession was that the Baron was not killed with the others. There has to be a reason that he was not put into one of the shallow graves. This could mean that the whole thing is a kind of personal vendetta and the speculation about Sir B trying to get ahead is just because he is brusque and not very likable. It does not hurt to keep him in the speculations and try to seek information however.

Imare has no doubt that the King could have put down any further trouble during the Rebellion but he was trying to get the whole thing behind him. Accepting back a noble rather than having to conquer him is easier. I doubt the good Baron could expect an invitation to tea. The King knew who and what he was and with the Earl of Tormau gone there was no banner to follow. It just makes sense (to me) in an administration sense, just as he knew that Golotha was not in the King Arren II booster club. If you are planning to go other places, replacing losses can get expensive and bothersome and is something to be avoided if possible.

The points about Sir B having to fool both Kings is a good one. Not being a member of the nobility, I don't know how often it would be needed. But it does go toward the supposition that Sir B is not involved, or if he is then his reward is not land or title.

[Matt]

This could mean that the whole thing is a kind of personal vendetta and the speculation about Sir B trying to get ahead is just because he is brusque and not very likable. It does not hurt to keep him in the speculations and try to seek information however.

Indeed, although being brusque and unlikable are not, in themselves, proof of ambition.

All I'm saying is there are more suspects than Sir Blors and more possibilities than blackmail. However, that this has something to do with the Baron's behavior during the rebellion seems plausible as you, Van, and Cheryl have all pointed out - each in your own way.

[Bevan]

Dave wrote:

The reason I brought up succession was that the Baron was not killed with the others.

Is it also possible the Morgathians didn't kill the Baron because they intend to use him in next months march up the hill? If the money was intended for them they may have plans for him. Perhaps we should research more about there rituals (unless we already know).

[Matt]

Is it also possible the Morgathians didn't kill the Baron because they intend to use him in next months march up the hill?

The Morgathians should not be lightly dismissed - they are the real power in the city, tend to operate in the darkness, and, like the Baron, were on the wrong side of the rebellion.

[Imarë]

I'm not sure it they really have to wait. Remember Ewen and his clergy were ready to worship at any time. It is the public and high ritual days when everybody shows up for the spectaculars. Would even the Morgathians kill a noble in a setting with more than the bare minimum number? We could go and check on fantosel dens... Would the body, if found floating in one of the canals, be recognized and notice taken or would it be another Sir Felkar scenario. Could also be that the Agrikans needed to break in a new slave a couple of nights ago.

Another thought would be that the Baron was grabbed to sweat some information out of him. What could he know that somebody would go to these lengths for however (maybe he knows where the steed is).

I was not meaning Sir Blors personality shortcomings represented his ambitions. I was saying I may be acting on my antipathy toward the man and looking for defects .

[Matt]

I'm not sure it they really have to wait. Remember Ewen and his clergy were ready to worship at any time. It is the public and high ritual days when everybody shows up for the spectaculars.

True, who knows what dark and terrifying rituals take place within the temple grounds on any given day ...

Would even the Morgathians kill a noble in a setting with more than the bare minimum number?

This is a fair question - the Morgathians aren't generally known for their muscle - but they do seem to have a lot of animated dead. However, don't assume they killed the Baron's party - as Cheryl suggested the Baron may have been running away from the Morgathians and as you have noted he clearly was attempting to get away from the city. He could have been fleeing the Morgathians and yet waylaid by another group/faction entirely.

Would the body, if found floating in one of the canals, be recognized and notice taken or would it be another Sir Felkar scenario.

All depends on who does the finding ...

Could also be that the Agrikans needed to break in a new slave a couple of nights ago.

I think we can safely dismiss this nightmare scenario ...

I was not meaning Sir Blors personality shortcomings represented his ambitions. I was saying I may be acting on my antipathy toward the man and looking for defects .

Possibly. Recall that Rahel thinks similarly of the man and yet also seems to think he's a potential ally. Of course, that does depend of whether you think Rahel is an ally. Heh.

[Bevan]

Dave, I am a bit confused by your post.

I'm not sure it they really have to wait.

Do you mean the Morgathian's do not have to wait until he is brought to a temple or until next months march up the hill to the crypts?

Remember Ewen and his clergy were ready to worship at any time. It is the public and high ritual days when everybody shows up for the spectaculars

Are you comparing the practices of the Heleans and Morgathians?

Would even the Morgathians kill a noble in a setting with more than the bare minimum number?

Do you know of a bare number needed for a ritual?


UPDATE: Ok so I posted at the same time as Matt. Some of my question have been answered, but I would still like to hear feedback from my questions.

Would the body, if found floating in one of the canals, be recognized and notice taken or would it be another Sir Felkar scenario.

Quite possible he would not be recognized. Do you think they could have brought him back for some ritual then dumped in the river?

Could also be that the Agrikans needed to break in a new slave a couple of nights ago.

Are you suggesting the Baron is now a slave working for the Agrikans??

Another thought would be that the Baron was grabbed to sweat some information out of him. What could he know that somebody would go to these lengths for however (maybe he knows where the steed is).

How would this tie in with him blowing town so quickly after learning the money was gone? If the Morgathians and the Agrikans were involved, I would think the A's would be the ones to do the killing on the road and perhaps the M's requested the Baron be brought back to them to be dealt with.

I was not meaning Sir Blors personality shortcomings represented his ambitions. I was saying I may be acting on my antipathy toward the man and looking for defects

Yes he does seem to have some short comings in his personality department, but I don't think we should imagine more than what we have actually witnessed.

UPDATE: OK. So I posted at the same time as Matt, which offered clarification. I would still wouldn't mind hearing feedback

[Imarë]

To answer your points in turn:

Yes, I was referring to the Morgathians not needing to wait for the next high day.

No, I don't think there was an orgy on the hill or a slaughter in the Temple of Halea. I think that all religions on Harn have specific ritual "holy" days but worship still goes on everyday is what I meant. If he were to be sacrificed I don't think it would be in front of the whole congrigation.

The flip answer to the next one would be one, the Priest but no, I don't know if the religion requires a group. I think that a sacrifice could be made without everybody though.

On the dumping of the body, it would be a great way to get rid of a body. There are enough that one more probably won't make a difference and once cremation happens few forensic tests will work. If it had not been for Trelk and Co we would have been totally in the dark about Sir Felkar.

On the Agrikan front I was commenting that the Morgathians are not the only game in town. A number of groups could have snatched the Baron for unknown reasons. It does seem a little well planned for the Agrikans to have done it however.

Since we don't know why he was doing anything I cannot speculate whether or not he would have blown town when the valuables were taken. I don't think it would hurt the premise though. I agree with the speculation about who did what if it was these two groups (it that makes any sense).

On Sir Blors. As I have said in prior notices, our speculation is good only to make a list of people and things to investigate. I have trouble with some of the actions of Sir Blors and am unwilling to assume innocence. I would be against making speculative attacks on the man outside of our discussions.

Some of my comments are devils advocate kind of notions, or even bad attempths at humor (the Baron being a slave of the Agrikans for example). Bringing out varied ideas and making proposals for and against the idea in the unhurried moments between sessions should make for a good session, we don't have to spend our time arguing it there. I am not attached to any one theory and have changed my mind a number of times as to who and why. If somebody likes a whole different scenario, please feel free to state it.

[Matt]

On the Agrikan front I was commenting that the Morgathians are not the only game in town. A number of groups could have snatched the Baron for unknown reasons.

Up until a very recent post, the Morgathians hadn't even been mentioned. Perhaps a list of all potential groups is in order.

It does seem a little well planned for the Agrikans to have done it however.

Not all the Agrikans are necessarily like Sir Zaurial's fraternity.

Since we don't know why he was doing anything I cannot speculate whether or not he would have blown town when the valuables were taken. I don't think it would hurt the premise though.

It's actually pretty clear that the Baron split for one of three reasons:

1 - Sir Felkar's murder
2 - Loss of the money
3 - Both

No other reason has any credibility given the circumstances.

On Sir Blors. As I have said in prior notices, our speculation is good only to make a list of people and things to investigate. I have trouble with some of the actions of Sir Blors and am unwilling to assume innocence.

The main thing seems to be his lack of interest in Sir Felkar's body (do correct if there are others apart from his grouchiness). If this is so, what do you think of the theory advanced by Cheryl that Blors may have been plotting with Felkar and now wanted to distance himself?

even bad attempts at humor (the Baron being a slave of the Agrikans for example).

Well, I knew it was a joke ...

[Matt]

FYI - Session 21 notes are now available here.

[Bevan]

If somebody likes a whole different scenario, please feel free to state it.

I believe I did here. Please feel free to comment directly on my theory and let me know if there is anything I wasn't clear on. I tried to base my speculations on what would fit with Sir Felkar being robbed and being murdered, treating them as separate events.

This is my theory in a nut shell:

Sir F plots against the Baron, after having poisoned the next guy in line a few weeks earlier. He knows you can get away with that once but not twice. So he conspires with Sir Blors to steal the money the Baron needs to pay off the M's (M's ticked off at him for something to do with the rebellion in 728).

Somehow Jarop learns about the money (maybe from Sir B maybe from someone else) and sees a big score and robs Sir F - has the Bridgetower watched or knew about the drop (the latter would implicate Sir B) Sir F is robbed and then murdered. Unclear how this relates, but the mascles point him to our guy in Coranan.

The Baron, realizing the money is gone and that he cannot pay the M's decides to get out if town as fast as possible. The Baron's departure all the way through town is observed by one of the interested parties and they deal with him.

This is a broad overview of my theory. I think my post has support for it.

Sorry for missing the humor. Since delivery is missing i think the humor is sometimes missed. It has happen to me as well.

[Imarë]

Bevan, I like your theory as much as mine. Now can look for evidence which backs them up. The plea was not meant to say no others had been introduced but for Sir Baris and Ewen to see if they think something else and then to let us know about it.

As a player, I know that Matt has not made the adventure beyond our reach to solve. What went on is out there to be found. He also has a tendency to keep to the plot he lays down, if a clue is available somewhere he is not going to move it to wherever you are if you are being obtuse and not understanding. The tendency is both admirable and frustrating. This is a compliment in case you missed it Matt. If we were not challenged I don't think it would be as fun yet the backround is constant and well thought out. So, to we players, lets go out and find those clues.

[Matt]

The tendency is both admirable and frustrating. This is a compliment in case you missed it Matt.

I sir, am evil incarnate. My sole purpose is to frustrate players and toy with them as the cat does the mouse. And then I kill them. Heh. If you find a clue, I shall move it. If you figure out a mystery, I shall change it. I. Am. Evil.

[Lord Ewen]

Thanks, Cheryl, for boiling down your theory so clearly. With all of the recent posting, it certainly helps to do that.

I would simply note that my speculation above regarding Sir B tying things together was intended as a variation of yours, not an alternate, but let's not quibble, shall we? I gather we all agree that putting some energy into Sir B next session would be worthwhile; even if it ends up exonerating him it will be useful and perhaps we'll learn something in the process.

Perhaps Dave would be so good as to summarize his theory, as I confess to being unclear at this point as to what it is. (N.B. Cheryl did her summary in eight sentences )

Perhaps we can now begin discussing concrete ways to gather the information we need to clarify these theories. At least until someone comes up with a new theory to thrash around.

[Lord Ewen]

In any event, I think the proper course of action is to gather as much information as possible and take it to Sir Auram. First, from what Matt says, the King is the only one who could do anything if the culpret is Sir B or any other noble. Second, whoever they are, they seem connected with the power structure in the city and are beyond our power to do anything besides gather information.

Ewen doesn't agree with this.

[Matt]

In any event, I think the proper course of action is to gather as much information as possible and take it to Sir Auram. First, from what Matt says, the King is the only one who could do anything if the culpret is Sir B or any other noble. Second, whoever they are, they seem connected with the power structure in the city and are beyond our power to do anything besides gather information.

Ewen doesn't agree with this.

Heh. I'm not surprised now that you're in thick with the Agrikan power structure. At least as long as the ale holds out ...

[Lord Ewen]

I know I indicated readiness for laying out some specific plans of action, but I find myself with further thoughts about Cheryl's theory

For the first, let me play devil's advocate a bit with elements of the theory. One permutation holds that one party (the LK) had the Bridgetower Inn observed, and robbed Sir F when he was going to make the drop. Then a second party (3-M guy), also staking out the environs near the inn, sees Sir F robbed and murders him. Then the next morning, a third party (Morgathians, say) staking out the Bridgetower Inn sees the Baron flee and sets up the ambush. Now I know I'm being difficult for the sake of argument, but three separate unaffiliated stake-outs of the inn during, say, an eight hour time period is just too friggin' many stakeouts. Coulda happened, true, but it frankly beggars the imagination.

My own inclination is to think that at least two of these parties must be in cahoots.

Then there is the matter of Sir B again. If, as Cheryl suggests, he was the target of Sir F's "drop", we know for sure that Sir F never got there. If Sir B did not tip off the LK about the drop, then all he presumably knows is that Sir F never showed up. And we can figure he wasn't waiting for Sir F in the comfort of his own keep south of the city, because Sir F was going the wrong way, as Dave has pointed out. Yet Sir B waited until dinner time the following evening to inquire at the Bridgetower. Now I'm sure that the sheriff is a busy man and all, but you would think he could have sent a man around with a message on the morning of the 11th to Sir F to the effect of "what the f***?", having been stood up the night before.

That, taken in combination with the excessive number of stakeouts detailed above, makes me partial to the notion that Sir B tipped off the LK. It gets rid of one of those stakeouts (ie somebody lurking near the inn waiting for something to happen), by making Sir B the arranger of things. I frankly continue to find it most parsimonious to suspect Sir B of having a hand in all three events (robbery, murder, ambush) because it radically simplifies things. But I nod to your scepticism.

And then there's the ambush. Quite honestly, I'm have a hard time making the obvious suspects fit. The methodology seems odd for Morgathians, but I confess to ignorance as to how they would go about things. My presumptions about them do not, however, involve them riding about on steeds, setting up military-style ambushes, and dueling with opponents with swords. And would they bother to dig shallow graves? The Agrikans seem more likely, except for the part about the graves perhaps, and Boraga's somewhat authoritative statement that the deed didn't bear their stamp. So I keep coming back to Sir B, in that the ambush seems more the work of the type of guys the sheriff would keep on hand. The corruption in the sheriff's department would, however, have to run pretty deep for his men to be complacent in bagging a Baron with impunity, so I would think Sir B would have needed to lead the raid himself, if he in fact was the instigator of it.

Come to think of it, Rahel has sufficient military muscle to ambush the Baron as well. Do we need to open a file on her as well?

[Imarë]

I have not had time to form a reply yet. I did not want anyone to think I was ignoring anything here. Hope to post this evening.

[Lord Ewen]

Great. Sure was hoping I hadn't killed the thread.

[Bevan]

I'm happy to hear the thread is continuing as well. I plan a response to Van's post too.

[Imarë]

My thought on what happened was this: First, the Baron was paying off somebody for reason or reasons unknown. This is what he came to the city for. Sir Felkar was carrying this payment to its destination when he was robbed. My original thought was that the person he was paying off did not really want money, he wanted the Baron himself. To this end he caused the robbery. This put the Baron in fear of his life and he fled the city. While getting out of Dodge, the Baron and his party were ambushed and the three underlings were killed and the primary objective of all this was taken somewhere for unknown purposes. I posited that, since Mogger was involved in the robbery, the LK was either the payee of the blackmail or was hired by somebody to take the valuables. In my original thoughts I asked whether the "big job" which Mogger referred to could have something to do with what the Baron was taken for. I do not believe the murder had anything to do with the robbery (why separate the actions the way they were and where would they get the importance ot the symbol as we have found it nowhere else). I later came up with the idea that Sir Blors might be involved due to his actions and reactions to what was going on and who was there. I don't think that we have any major disagreements here on anything, just differences in who we think the cast of characters and the roles they are playing. As mentioned above, I still can't separate the idea of the "big job" from the capture of the Baron. I am still wary of Merky. We met her when she and a couple of friends were planning to rob somebody from the alley. I would think that this would come under the umbrella of the LK, one of our primary suspects in the original robbery. She might be feeding us information that the LK wants us to have to either derail or concentrate our inquiries in a partucular direction. We just now need to try to find information to see where our suppositions go to (likely into the circular file but who knows).
As to what to do with the information. While I would not be adverse to doing some butt kicking, the chances of us being in the dominant position is, in my opinion, low. We are talking about knights with retainers and fighting orders (Agrik and the Sheriff to name two of them). Some have the restless dead on their side. In my opinion we just don't have the strenght to conclude this ourselves. I do not remember Sir Auram charging us with the resolution of the problems we find, just getting information so that the crown can act if practicable. If we come across a suitable opportunity to do something, we should go for it. I am keeping in mind however the jewlery of Evil Erol, symbology of Naveh. Remember the former patron (who supplied us with the boat) was rumored to be of this persuasion and that man lived in this city for quite awhile. Rahel, who we are supposing is an admirer of Arren I is a associated with the Lia Kavir also. If we do something, I think it will be at considerable peril to ourselves. If that is the way the majority think we should go, Imare will go with that decision.

[Matt]

the Baron was paying off somebody for reason or reasons unknown. This is what he came to the city for.

There appears to be consensus on this point, although not necessarily the motive.

My original thought was that the person he was paying off did not really want money, he wanted the Baron himself. To this end he caused the robbery. This put the Baron in fear of his life and he fled the city.

How would the Baron have come to this realization? Is it because of Sir Felkar's murder? (Which, I might point out you all know far more about now than the Baron did when he fled.) And if the true target were the Baron, why alert him by murdering Felkar? If the Baron's purpose, the robbery, and the murder are all unrelated what does that imply?

While getting out of Dodge, the Baron and his party were ambushed and the three underlings were killed and the primary objective of all this was taken somewhere for unknown purposes.

It is also possible that the Baron was also killed and his body taken by the Legionnaires, although Bevan and Imarë's investigation of the scene does not support that view.

I posited that, since Mogger was involved in the robbery, the LK was either the payee of the blackmail or was hired by somebody to take the valuables.

Or they could have been horning in on someone else's action.

In my original thoughts I asked whether the "big job" which Mogger referred to could have something to do with what the Baron was taken for.

True, though £20 give or take is a pretty big job by itself.

I don't think that we have any major disagreements here on anything, just differences in who we think the cast of characters and the roles they are playing.

Except on the blackmail angle, on which there is no consensus and would impact the angle of the investigation pretty solidly.

I am still wary of Merky. We met her when she and a couple of friends were planning to rob somebody from the alley. I would think that this would come under the umbrella of the LK, one of our primary suspects in the original robbery.

In which case she would have to have had some connection to Mogger, and a reason beyond fear to rat him out to you guys. She could have lied after all and then disappeared into the shadows ...

She might be feeding us information that the LK wants us to have to either derail or concentrate our inquiries in a particular direction.

Which naturally begs the question of to what purpose? What is the LK's interest here?

[Imarë]

To give some clarification: I had the idea that whatever the valuable the Baron was delivering, the loss of it to robbers would cause somebody toward violence toward him. To this end, he fled. I feel the murder was not part of the plan of whoever instigated the robbery. To me, the murder of Sir Felkar was not what caused the Baron to flee.
I thought we talked to Sir Tovar about the finding of the bodies and that he said there were only the three. Maybe my halucinations are impacting on reality again.
To cut down on coincidences, my idea was that the LK was an original player in the action and did not have to find out by some other means. This is, of course, an asumption on my part but it just makes things easier for me at this time.

[Matt]

To give some clarification: I had the idea that whatever the valuable the Baron was delivering, the loss of it to robbers would cause somebody toward violence toward him. To this end, he fled. I feel the murder was not part of the plan of whoever instigated the robbery.

Check.

I thought we talked to Sir Tovar about the finding of the bodies and that he said there were only the three. Maybe my halucinations are impacting on reality again.

Indeed, he did. He could have been lying - after all, if a Baron were murdered within your zone you might be a touch circumspect.