After Lenesque

[Lord Ewen]

Thought I would get things kicked off with a clarification. As promised, I tracked down in my notes the fee I was paid by the red-haired harper guy to play King Andasin's Feast: it was 120d, not 60d.

I imagine we have much to ponder on before next session, having learned quite a bit for one very long day. Anything of interest from the post-game wrapup after I signed off?

The implications of Rahel's men ambushing the Baron need to be grappled with, and I suppose we can devote some time in the forum to the more mundane plans for setting up house in the old Lenesque abode. I'll post again after a little more time to digest things from Saturday...

[Imarë]

Yes, there was a post session. I am working on digesting both of these and putting it into a form where all can see it. Give me a little while to get this together before we start hashing it back and forth with gusto.

[Sir Baris]

What are you guys thinking in regards to what we will do with this house in the future? Were you thinking of using it merely as a base of operations while here, or were you thinking of keeping it more long term?

[Matt]

Were you thinking of using it merely as a base of operations while here, or were you thinking of keeping it more long term?

Indeed, this is a question I'd like to see answered as well ...

[Sir Baris]

Indeed, this is a question I'd like to see answered as well ...

Yeah, because I can see the crown understanding us taking it *for now* but eventually won't that land revert to the crown? Not sure how feudal ownership works in this area (presumably it was not land granted by his lord, since I think he was hiding his nobility), but that seems like a likely possibility.

I would like to know Evil Errol got this land, and who would inherit it if, say, someone happened to murder him on the streets of Golatha? I know we're squatting and in theory it's alright with the crown, but if we *were not* doing that, legally who would get the house?

[Lord Ewen]

I for one am not sure how this instance would work as well. Is Golotha still considered a chartered freetown, holding its charter at the pleasure of the king? If so, I would imagine that such nuts-and-bolts arrangement of in-town ownership would be determined by the Heptarchial Council, as opposed to the way rural land is granted per standard feudal rules, but perhaps I am incorrect in this. Given what we know about Golotha's government, I would imagine our ability to hang on to such a piece of property, should we decide to do that, would depend more upon our ability to grease the requisite wheels on the Council. Otherwise, I would think it would behoove the Council to snatch up vacant property in the city, by main force if necessary, in order to dispose with it in a manner which plenishes the various Councilors' coffers.

Where would Lenesque have registered an heir or will for his estate, given his undercover status, and who would be likely to attempt to claim it in the wake of his death? In a city like Golotha, perhaps that can be done through a litigant (again, with greasing of wheels on the Council), but I suspect that there is some likelihood, given the circumstances, that no claimant will be forthcoming. I doubt any feudal involvement, via the Herald's College, would be involved, as Lenesque's claim to be Earl of Techen is worth nothing given that Osric Jothysan holds that title now at King Arren's pleasure.

If we can, in fact, hold the property without a competing claimant contesting us, I suspect the decision as to whether we hang on to the house is largely an economic one. As we are liable to be absent for extended periods of time, the cost of maintaining and guarding the place will be a huge factor in whether we wish to keep it. For what it's worth, I am extremely reluctant to blithely abandon a valuable piece of real estate in a major walled Hârnic city without exploring all of the options first.

[Matt]

In Tharda and feudal kingdoms like it, all land everywhere belongs to the Crown as do mineral and other rights. Land is held of the Crown in was is called fee taille (feudal obligations) or fee simple. In theory, fee taille land does not change hands without the permission of the monarch, while fee simple land can be bought and sold, the legal term being 'alienated.'

Golotha is a freetown, so land is generally held in fee simple (don't worry about what that means technically other than one can 'own' land without feudal service). Apart from the value of the property, there would be an assessed value by the town (typically less than the real value, sometimes made much less through the greasing of the right palms) which would be the value for taxation purposes. Property taxes are usually paid once a year on the 1st of Savor.

We'll worry about some of the other details later, but Erol's house is huge (about 8350 sq. ft.) and in a good section of town. It's probably worth between £150 and £200. With a little squeezing, you would learn from the 'chamberlain' that it belonged to the former Earl of Techen, and after his death, Erol had a title deed forged in his name with one of the litigants in town (he'll tell you which one).

However, since the old Earl was attainted, all his property was forfeit to the Crown ten years ago. Thus, legally, this house and everything in it belongs to the King, and is in his gift. Of course, the Crown does not know this, and it's quite likely that if the taxes were paid annually (£8 according to the 'chamberlain') no one would be the wiser. Of course, Jarop and others in the know would have a pretty big sword to hold over your heads ...

[Matt]

If so, I would imagine that such nuts-and-bolts arrangement of in-town ownership would be determined by the Heptarchial Council, as opposed to the way rural land is granted per standard feudal rules, but perhaps I am incorrect in this.

Yes, the taxes would be collected by the city, and used by them to run the place and also pay their annual obligation to the Crown. The town government would also manage the minutia of deeds, probate, etc. One imagines the opportunities for graft and corruption are enormous.

Given what we know about Golotha's government, I would imagine our ability to hang on to such a piece of property, should we decide to do that, would depend more upon our ability to grease the requisite wheels on the Council.

As noted above, this property has legally reverted to the Crown, and revenue from its sale would go to the King. Pretty big chunk of change.

Otherwise, I would think it would behoove the Council to snatch up vacant property in the city, by main force if necessary, in order to dispose with it in a manner which plenishes the various Councilors' coffers.

Indeed, you might expect them to hold a rather large amount of real estate, although they would hold it in fee simple from the Crown just like anyone else.

I suspect that there is some likelihood, given the circumstances, that no claimant will be forthcoming. I doubt any feudal involvement, via the Herald's College, would be involved, as Lenesque's claim to be Earl of Techen is worth nothing given that Osric Jothysan holds that title now at King Arren's pleasure.

True, if Theron was correct, the only Lenesque left is the mavari at Gelimo. But he would have no more claim than Erol given the old Earl's attainder.

I suspect the decision as to whether we hang on to the house is largely an economic one. As we are liable to be absent for extended periods of time, the cost of maintaining and guarding the place will be a huge factor in whether we wish to keep it.

Upkeep would be pretty big. Perhaps why Erol turned to crime ...

For what it's worth, I am extremely reluctant to blithely abandon a valuable piece of real estate in a major walled Hârnic city without exploring all of the options first.

No, you shouldn't. Land is the foundation of wealth and this one could be occupied or let on long-term lease or even sold. But you must gain title first, either by fair means or foul. Here in Golotha, I should think both are possible ... The former is obvious - you can't afford to buy it, but that doesn't mean you can persuade the Crown (through Sir Auram of course) to either grant it outright or perhaps sell it at a fire-sale price for services rendered. Erol's own loot might be suitably employed here (and you may not have found it all). Alternatively, you could bribe the right people here to rubber-stamp the necessary documents. Of course, should Jarop or Sir Zaurial decide they don't like you anymore, they could very easily whisper the wrong thing in the right ears.

[Bevan]

In a city like Golotha, perhaps that can be done through a litigant (again, with greasing of wheels on the Council),

It just so happens we do know a litigant who also happens to be on the council. Not sure if Parqu would help nor how much influence his position on the council offers. I also think they are too powerful a family to not hold such a shady transaction over our heads. With a ship inbound to the city I would not like to see it taken advantage of.

I do think that Bevan will be more inclined to come clean with the Crown. I think Sir Auram would be pleased with the fact that we not only took care of the Lenesue issue, but we also discovered a piece of property that rightfully belongs to the Crown but has gone unnoticed. Sir Auram may just offer it to us at a reasonable price to buy. (This may need to be suggested) Personally the idea of having a piece of property in Golotha would mean this is the base of operations. I would prefer a place like Coranan where we have fewer enemies and is closer to a very good source of income...Sir Auram. I don't think it a bad idea to seek the oportunity to purchase the Lenesque estate as it could realize a nice profit.

[Matt]

I would prefer a place like Coranan where we have fewer enemies and is closer to a very good source of income...Sir Auram. I don't think it a bad idea to seek the oportunity to purchase the Lenesque estate as it could realize a nice profit.

If you can obtain a legal title there are several options. One is to use the place yourself and manage the upkeep. The other is to either rent it or lease it. The latter option favors the long-term lease which provides and income which can be "automated" as it were. Lastly, gaining legal title would also allow you to sell the property which would likely realize a tidy sum. What is clear is that this is a valuable asset and you need (as a group) to determine what to do with it.

[Sir Baris]

I do think that Bevan will be more inclined to come clean with the Crown.

I agree with this notion. Stealing property is not exactly the kind of behavior expected of a knight. As you suggested, protecting the property that rightly belongs to the crown is a different matter.

[Imarë]

I agree it is illogical to walk away from something as valuable as the house. It would probably be best to go the Sir Auram route to try for ownership as the subject will probably come up when Bevan reports (as I recall, in the last debriefing he read he mind in order not to miss details so he would find out about this too). In addition, if we go through him it is not likely that anyone could hold the subject over our heads. I also agree that Parku is not the ideal person if we (as a group decide to) go the other way, Rahel might not be buddy buddy, but they collude whenever if fits both their agendas and we have no idea what those are. In relation to the suitablility of the site, while it is not the ideal place for court influence, it is not a bad location. Remember that at least part of the group owns shares in a ship which is involved in commerce. Coranan is not the trade center of the kingdom and we are currently not welcome in Cherafir (I think). I do not think we will have many missions in the capital either for Sir Auram, more likely he would assign Bevan where the crown needs something done, like Golotha for instance. It is also more accessable to travel to other places by ship, being coastal. If, after we are able to obtain it for more than temporary use, we decide that it is not working out we could always sell it later (1,920d per anum will mean we have to work regularly). As part of the process, I would suggest we get on the right side of Jarop. We killed his man. I might suggest a note asking for a meeting and explaining that his man got in the way and was killed by accident. Blood money, I am sure, will be involved. I don't think Sir Z and his merry men will be a problem until they find out that Ewen is involved in helping the crown (which they would if the deal goes through Sir Auram, but I am sure it could be kept quiet).

Sir Baris, a knight is always looking to steal land, it just belongs to another kingdom when he takes it. This land would not revert to the crown in any event I think. More likely it would go to the city government and would only go to help the Morgathians and possibly Agrikans.

[Sir Baris]

Sir Baris, a knight is always looking to steal land, it just belongs to another kingdom when he takes it. This land would not revert to the crown in any event I think. More likely it would go to the city government and would only go to help the Morgathians and possibly Agrikans.

Yeah, it's just that this land *does* belong to our kingdom. Right now it is supposed to belong to the king, as Matt said above:

However, since the old Earl was attainted, all his property was forfeit to the Crown ten years ago. Thus, legally, this house and everything in it belongs to the King, and is in his gift.

[Imarë]

This is true, but remember that I am proposing to go the legal route, thus the crown would know about it and (hopefully) it would be part of a compensation package for services rendered. In some ways, however, this is enemy held land, the city is run by Morgathians and your frinds the Agrikans.

[Matt]

In some ways, however, this is enemy held land, the city is run by Morgathians and your friends the Agrikans.

A portion of the taxes would still end up going to the city, and no doubt a large percentage of that finds its way into the coffers of the M&As. You don't know what the Crown's cut is, but it's unlikely to be less than a third. And the Crown's share of the property itself comes to a cool hunnert porcent.

[Imarë]

We were discussing what land a knight can and cannot take (and is mostly in jest on my part as is seems to be on yours). I advocate trying to get the property legally, fewer people to worry about if we do that.

[Matt]

I advocate trying to get the property legally, fewer people to worry about if we do that.

That seems to be the consensus.

However, that line about "and everything in it" should not be taken too seriously. A little looting is to be expected ...

[Bevan]

I agree with this notion. Stealing property is not exactly the kind of behavior expected of a knight. As you suggested, protecting the property that rightly belongs to the crown is a different matter.

Well it wasn't actually driven by honor, more like Bevan enjoys her day job...

[Lord Ewen]

I do not have a problem with dealing forthrightly with Sir Auram about the house. We seem to keep enough on our plates in general without encumbering ourselves in an effort to illegally maintain a house in Golotha.

As part of the process, I would suggest we get on the right side of Jarop. We killed his man. I might suggest a note asking for a meeting and explaining that his man got in the way and was killed by accident. Blood money, I am sure, will be involved.

My notes are unclear on this. I assume you refer to Jeremiz. Jarop disavowed Slakka, stating he was not one of his people, and I had concluded that Jeremiz was in this category as well. Jarop did say Borana was protected, while he explicitly stated that Evil Erol was not one of his people. My conclusion from all this was that Mogger was Jarop's agent, and Mogger was responsible for his own band.

Of course, all of these guys might have been Lia Kavair and Jarop was simply being prudent about not naming anyone as members. What do you guys think? Do we need to make things right with Jarop? There are any number of ways that Jarop might find out about who killed Erol and Jeremiz, including gossip about the house, or from anyone who (unseen by us) might have witnessed the attack. Interestingly, Ewen claimed to Zaurial that he was responsible for Lenesque's death, taking apparent full responsibility for it (and Zaurial responded with a grave comment about how dangerous Ewen is). If Jarop lays the blame at Ewen's doorstep specifically, then we'll know where he got that information from.

[Lord Ewen]

One additional thought on my post above. Slakka spoke repeatedly of the Grandmaster (Jarop), and when asked whether Jarop would care about his being stabbed, he said he hoped so. This sounds like the words of someone who certainly thought he was one of Jarop's people. So, did Jarop lie to Bevan?

[Imarë]

I remember Matt at least intimating that Mogger and Jeremiz were his people and that he did not care about the others. On the Slakka front there are three possibilities 1) He was a member and Jarop is saying he is not to have a good face on it. 2) He is not but wants to be 3) Since we were not involved in the stabbing, why should we care.

I will check my notes more carefully about who was in the groups involved.

[Matt]

This sounds like the words of someone [Slakka] who certainly thought he was one of Jarop's people. So, did Jarop lie to Bevan?

You get the impression that Slakka was a free-lancer whom Jarop wanted (and had likely tried) to bring into the fold. Clearly, Slakka had done some work (probably wet work) for the LK, and was a player of sorts in the town's underworld.

I remember Matt at least intimating that Mogger and Jeremiz were his people and that he did not care about the others.

Jarop is obviously more than capable of lying, but I believe I did 'intimate' that Jeremiz was one of Jarop's people. His death could be dicey, but probably nothing some wergild won't solve.

[Lord Ewen]

OK, that makes sense particularly in light of what we learned about Slakka's skills, and those of his grandfather. His reputed skill also makes the intruder in Borana's household even more impressive.

So Dave's point is well taken - it would probably behoove us to make things right with Jarop (that's Bevan's gig, I believe ). I still think the notion of seeing whether information flows from Zaurial to Jarop is worth considering, although it would necessitate waiting long enough for this to occur before speaking to Jarop. Waiting too long invites Jarop taking action before we can smooth things over, but scurrying off to propitiate the Guildmaster first thing in the morning is not particularly to my liking either

[Matt]

OK, that makes sense particularly in light of what we learned about Slakka's skills, and those of his grandfather. His reputed skill also makes the intruder in Borana's household even more impressive.

Indeed, the implication was that Slakka was one of the foremost assassins in Golotha (which would explain Jarop's potential interest and Slakka's independence - why pay 50% of your take if you're that good?) and thus one of the best blades around.

Whoever visited Jelesa took out Slakka like he was a lumpen peasant. A formidable adversary ...

[Imarë]

Has anybody thought of the Golotha cat loving community? I believe Evil Erol was the one who was wearing the necklace. Would they mind us sending him on a trip to see the boss?