Baris really stepped in it

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Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:35 pm

and now he has to apologise, and hope to salvage the campaign. :)

Maybe we should work out exactly what he should say, if he needs to say more, etc? I was hoping Matt could chime in.

Basically I'm imagining Baris would think back to all those manners he supposedly knows but ignores, and dredge up the right words.

"I apologize for my remarks last night about your noble father and your house, I spoke without being in full possession of the facts. I was not aware your father had attempted to ride into battle before he grew ill; had I known I would not have spoken so. I was under a mistaken impression due to the fog of war, I'm sure you understand. That said, even had things been as I had imagined them, my words were poorly chosen, especially aimed at your person and in that venue. Your father grew ill in the course of his proper duties, on his way to glorious battle, and I respect and admire him for that. Should any ask me about him, I will say as much. In addition, I must thank you for your level head considering my words, and hope you accept my apology."
Vemion delenda est.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Lord Ewen » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:50 pm

I think it is an excellent idea to prepare this ahead of time. I suspect an effective apology is going to feature a number of different components.

Having said that, I think it is worth taking a cue from Prehil, who knows Lord Curo. Prehil seemed convinced that the "newfound land had addled my brains" line was insufficient, to the point of chasing Curo down and placing greater emphasis on the factor of Baris having been quite drunk. Prehil seemed to think that it helped to do that, and that Curo was a bit less angry after he did that. Of course, Prehil might be giving himself too much credit, but the fact remains that we don't know Curo, so we have no alternative insight about what might smooth things over with the guy. I would put more emphasis on the drink, where you are putting too much emphasis on your thoughts.

In other words, to my mind, the problem with your first draft is that it emphasizes too much the idea that you came to the conclusion that Neph was a fat coward by the cold application of logic to faulty facts. I think that does little to assauge offended honor, which is the crux of the problem. I mean, your explanation is basically "garbage in, garbage out". I think the mind of a medieval nobleman would be minimally swayed by that logic.

I think any effective apology has to balm the offended honor by assuring Curo that you hold his father in esteem, and that the words you spoke were the drink speaking, not you. You might, for instance, reference the dinner Neph hosted which you attended (session 50), your only in-person meeting of the man, and how conscious you are of the honor shown you in his Lordship's invitation.

Curo himself told Prehil what the apology should include, and I wouldn't suggest omitting anything. I believe a pledge to never again speak anything ill of the father in public or private was mentioned. You might even consider demonstrating your sincere contrition by pledging some deed by Sir Baris on behalf of the Curo family, to be named by Curo, in recognition of the sober way the guy has handled this (which you mention in your draft). Seems like something more concrete and honor-related, such as this kind of pledge, is more soothing to the medieval mindset, no?

Also, it should go without saying, part of the apology should include a disclaimer that your beastly outburst in no way reflected the views of your liege, that parfit, gentil knyght. 8)
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Aeomund » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:12 am

Perhaps the Earl of Neph would like earmuffs with Sir Baris' arms on them. That way he will not be plagued by the dying screams of the slaughtered knights killed in sight of his walls.

I agree with Van, the apology needs to be more dynamic.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Goreg » Wed May 01, 2013 6:15 am

Sir Ewen wrote: I think the mind of a medieval nobleman would be minimally swayed by that logic.


Or any logic. The apology should be in the same vein as the initial offense: emotional and visceral. Most of the knights of the kingdom (your target audience) have more in common with Sir Baris than with Sir Ewen. Tearfully abase yourself as you declare your shame that the very concept of honor was slighted.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Wed May 01, 2013 9:17 am

"I apologize for my remarks last night about your noble father and your house. By way of explanation but not excuse, I was drunk and not in my right head. My behavior was, indeed as you said, boorish and inexcusable, but I humbly ask that you do excuse it.

Let me take this opportunity to express my deepeest sympathies for your father, who I only just learned grew ill on his way to glorious battle. If only he had not been struck by illness, why I have no doubt he would have shown the Vikings what for!

Of course, please know that my outburst in no way reflects the views of my liege, Sir Ewen Ravinargh. Indeed, he holds your family in the highest esteem, and was quite wroth with me when he learned of my boorish remarks last eve.

In addition, I must thank you for your level head considering my words, and hope you accept my apology. I swear an oath never to speak ill of your father or your family again. If there is some deed I might perform to assuage your honor, but name it and it shall be done."
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Goreg » Wed May 01, 2013 9:41 am

" If there is some deed I might perform to assuage your honor, but name it and it shall be done."

I wouldn't add that part. That's asking for trouble.

If this was Malory, I could see the knight making a grandiose statement of intent as to a quest or similar expiatory deed, and maybe Baris would want to consider that. But we shouldn't let Neph or his son provide the idea.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Aeomund » Wed May 01, 2013 9:48 am

Close off with the presentation of a falcon or hound and that should seal the deal.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Lord Ewen » Wed May 01, 2013 9:51 am

Although my previous post suggested letting Curo exact a deed from Baris, I agree that letting Curo choose is probably a bad idea.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Lord Ewen » Wed May 01, 2013 9:51 am

Sir Aeomund wrote:Close off with the presentation of a falcon or hound and that should seal the deal.


That sounds excellent.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Wed May 01, 2013 10:34 am

I like the idea of presenting a falcon or hound.

Baris would probably go with a hound, given his love of hunting. Maybe in the future (like, next month game time) he could send Curo a fine bow or something similar as a further apology, and a silent suggestion they go on a hunt. Good male bonding.

I agree letting Curo chose the deed is asking for trouble. On the other hand, it shows how willing Baris is to put himself in Curo's hands, further showing how deeply he apologizes. And given what's at stake, shouldn't we go all in on the apology?

Also, Teddy the player is curious to see what would happen. It would be exciting, and a neat story element, I think. And it would serve him right from a story standpoint, having to really make a sacrifice for his words- it might cement the lesson more. OTOH, having to apologize to the Neph family is not something Baris is likely to forget. :D So if everyone is against it, I'll remove it.

Matt, given his vast knowledge of knightly behavior and customs, and with an assist from Filen, does Baris think he needs to take the extra step of promising a deed, or is an apology enough? IIRC, through Prehil Curo only asked for an apology.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Aeomund » Wed May 01, 2013 11:57 am

But we don't want Baris in Curios hands.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Lord Ewen » Wed May 01, 2013 12:05 pm

Just me, but if you give him a hound that should be more than sufficient.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Goreg » Wed May 01, 2013 1:35 pm

Sir Baris wrote:
Also, Teddy the player is curious to see what would happen. It would be exciting, and a neat story element, I think. .


It would be very dramatic, and I confess I'd be curious to see the results. It would certainly demonstrate complete abasement.

On the other hand, it might drag the entire party into the assigned deed.

What are relations between Vemion and Neph? Could Vemion bribe or cajole Neph into using such a declaration as a way of effectively eliminating one of Sir Ewen's
retainers? (By, for instance, telling Sir Baris to go a long pilgrimage to the continent)
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Matt » Wed May 01, 2013 1:52 pm

Sir Baris wrote:Maybe in the future (like, next month game time) he could send Curo a fine bow or something similar as a further apology, and a silent suggestion they go on a hunt. Good male bonding.

It is marginally safer to go bow hunting with Sir Baris than to be the entertainment at a Sir Danyes party. :lol:

Sir Baris wrote:Matt, given his vast knowledge of knightly behavior and customs, and with an assist from Filen, does Baris think he needs to take the extra step of promising a deed, or is an apology enough? IIRC, through Prehil Curo only asked for an apology.

Filen? Did I fail to mention he left town? :mrgreen:
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Matt » Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Sotor wrote:On the other hand, it might drag the entire party into the assigned deed.

Any quest worth its salt ...

Sotor wrote:(By, for instance, telling Sir Baris to go a long pilgrimage to the continent)

That would certainly solve the problem of the upstart foreign knights!
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Lord Ewen » Wed May 01, 2013 4:31 pm

Yeah, I think Sir Ewen considers this apology thing to be Baris's complete responsibility. Traipsing off on some quest arm-in-arm with Baris to mollify Neph Junior is not going to happen. :roll:

I don't recall any specific information regarding Neph and Vemion's relations, although Vemion is an uptight, upright, socially awkward bloke and not prone to leaving Vemionshire (in the past) aside from his hunting trips with the king. Neph, on the other hand, is a scheming glutton, Halea worshipper and bon vivant. Hard to see them collaborating much. But Neph being on his deathbed (possibly) and his son being swamped with affairs related to this, I doubt they'll have time for comparing notes with Vemion.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Arva » Wed May 08, 2013 2:01 pm

Where is Baris going to find a hound? He can't even find a squire....
:twisted:
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Wed May 08, 2013 2:09 pm

I understand that, unlike squires, you can buy hounds at the market. Or find someone who will sell you one.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Wed May 08, 2013 2:12 pm

Since game is this Sunday (?!) here is my current draft for the apology. Thoughts?

"I apologize for my remarks last night about your noble father and your house. By way of explanation but not excuse, I was drunk and not in my right head. My behavior was, indeed as you said, boorish and inexcusable, but I humbly ask that you do excuse it.

Let me take this opportunity to express my deepeest sympathies for your father, who I only just learned grew ill on his way to glorious battle. If only he had not been struck by illness, why I have no doubt he would have shown the Vikings what for!

Of course, please know that my outburst in no way reflects the views of my liege, Sir Ewen Ravinargh. Indeed, he holds your family in the highest esteem, and was quite wroth with me when he learned of my boorish remarks last eve.

I swear an oath never to speak ill of your father or your family again.

I thank you for your level head considering my words, and hope you accept my apology. "
Vemion delenda est.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Arva » Wed May 08, 2013 2:15 pm

Perhaps you should mention that your words were not worthy of a knight and you feel extreme regret for forgetting your knightly oath and will be spending the better part of the week in prayer to Larani for guidance.
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Re: Baris really stepped in it

Postby Sir Baris » Wed May 08, 2013 2:22 pm

"I apologize for my remarks last night about your noble father and your house, they were not worthy of a knight. By way of explanation but not excuse, I was drunk and not in my right head. Although my behavior was, as you said, boorish and inexcusable, I humbly ask that you excuse it.

Let me take this opportunity to express my deepeest sympathies for your father, who I only just learned grew ill on his way to glorious battle. If only he had not been struck by illness, why I have no doubt he would have shown the Vikings what for!

Of course, please know that my outburst in no way reflects the views of my liege, Sir Ewen Ravinargh. Indeed, he holds your family in the highest esteem, and was quite wroth with me when he learned of my boorish remarks last eve.

I swear an oath never to speak ill of your father or your family again.

I thank you for your level head considering my words, and hope you accept my apology. "

I am purposefully omitting any reference to Larani. :)
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