Vemion delenda est

Discussions regarding plotlines, paranoid musings, and other related ruminations

Moderator: Imarë

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Baris » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:39 pm

Sir Aeomund wrote:If Ewen is at a tourney he is hosting he can't be peronally implicated in the murder.

Something we need to consider as we'll is that if this is a game of chess than both queens are pregnant. If Vemion hates Ewen enough to kill his wife and remarry, what's to stop him from killing Thilisia and her child. Killing Thilisia would solve his probably just as easily as having a son. While Vemion personally may not come to this conclusion some of his retinue might.


Would no one rid me of this troublesome daughter?
Vemion delenda est.
User avatar
Sir Baris
Squire
Squire
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Attleboro, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Lord Ewen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:56 pm

I think the Make a Complaint strategy is worth considering, although I doubt more than a wrist-slap to Vemion would result in the best-case outcome. The main benefit, to my mind, would be suppressing further blatant attempts against Ewen, by "raising awareness" at court, which would make further attempts into outright defiance of the King (assuming the crown issued a cease-and-desist on our behalf). As Teddy pointed out at the head of this thread, the attacks are likely to keep coming and coming, and will tie us up dealing with them.

The downside of complaining is that it emphasizes Sir Ewen's motive if Vemion ends up face-down in his bathtub, no? But perhaps motive is already max'ed out, given an earldom at stake, and so we shouldn't fret about it?

Another problem with the Make a Complaint scheme: it's not Ewen's style AT ALL.

Dave reminds me, though. Wonder if Danyes Bernan is still stranded in the long room? Should Ewen just kill him at first opportunity? No problem with Ewen's style on that one...
User avatar
Lord Ewen
Baron
Baron
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:27 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Lord Ewen » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:04 pm

Re Tom's post, that's an excellent point, although Longhals' commission and the ambush at Bernan's house suggest that Vemion's not ready to go there yet. But Bresyn may feel very differently, which we should definely plan against. (Which isn't to say she didn't commission Longhals. My present guess is that she did, while Vemion was busy setting up the Bernan raid. The latter would be consistent with Vemion's style, while I'm not sure the former ploy is.)
User avatar
Lord Ewen
Baron
Baron
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:27 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Baris » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:05 pm

Vengeance on Danyes sounds good to Baris
Vemion delenda est.
User avatar
Sir Baris
Squire
Squire
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Attleboro, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:18 pm

Sir Baris wrote:I don't know about framing, Matt might have to give context about what kind of evidence is appropriate. (Signed confessions?)

Maybe we could get some of Vemions servants to confess in open court? Ewen just has to brainwash them. :)

Or torture a confession out of them.

Wouldn't happen. Vemion is not going to be arrested, frog-marched to the castle, fingerprinted and arraigned.

Judge, jury, prosecutor, AND defense counsel would all collapse into one person - Haldan III. If Vemion were even queried it would come down to some discreet questions, and then it would be that bastard Bastune did it! Or Bernan, or some other plausible scapegoat. Even if Haldan thought Vemion 100% guilty, the most that would happen would be a private ass-chewing to the effect of "don't be so obvious next time."

You must consider - who is more valuable to the King? It's not Ewen.

Also, don't forget Vemion knows Ewen is a Deryni. He might just play the witch card which would degrade Ewen's credibility considerably.

In short, the law will not solve this problem for you, even if you caught Vemion standing over Ewen's corpse with a bloody dagger.
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:27 pm

Sotor wrote:It seems like there would be some consequences for assaulting a direct vassal of the king.

Definitely - see above. Bastune, Bernan, etc. not an earl. Some pigs are more equal than others.

Sotor wrote:Perhaps Ewen could declare that an attempt had been made on his life, name Vemion, and ask the king for a trial by combat, either by the principles or between champions.

Interesting idea. The King would have to accept it - no small achievement there - and Vemion would have a champion, count on it. Vemion would probably go for it - gives him a free shot at Ewen who would have to fight in person.

If Vemion's champion were defeated, the most that would happen would be some sort of restitution - money basically. Ewen was not, after all, killed, so the charge at most is attempted murder which is barely a crime in the medieval context.

There are really only two crimes of which a nobleman can be guilty - rebellion and treason. Notice who both of those affect.
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Goreg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:33 pm

Yup. Anything we do has to be done in context of the king's shadow lying over all.

Which means anything we do must look either accidental or like it's coming from another direction. There can be no detectable connection to Sir Ewen.

Who else doesn't like Vemion?
User avatar
Goreg
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Medford, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Baris » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:36 pm

I wasn't suggesting we torture a confession out of Vemion- rather that we torture a confession out of those around him. Not so much to get the law on our side and let the king handle it, but rather as a way to provide legal cover when we kill Vemion should any blame fall upon us. If the king or anyone else said something about it, our response could be, "What, his servants/vassal admitted in open court his plots against us! Would you tell these nobles gathered here they cannot defend themselves if they are attacked?"

Of course, this would only (maybe) protect us from overt, legally sanctioned retaliation over the death of Vemion. We'd still have to deal with any below the board attacks that came as a consequence, but we'd have to do that no matter what course of action we take.

Also, to be clear, this is Teddy the player suggesting all this torturing, mostly because my mind is on it because it features prominently in the awesome book I'm reading. Sir Baris, a victim of torture himself, would argue vehemently against its use. Even in skulduggery we can have some honor.
Vemion delenda est.
User avatar
Sir Baris
Squire
Squire
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Attleboro, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Goreg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:47 pm

Sir Baris wrote: If the king or anyone else said something about it, our response could be, "What, his servants/vassal admitted in open court his plots against us! Would you tell these nobles gathered here they cannot defend themselves if they are attacked?"


That would be extremely dangerous. That sounds close to an incitement to rebellion.

Sir Baris wrote:Of course, this would only (maybe) protect us from overt, legally sanctioned retaliation over the death of Vemion.


The question here isn't the law. It's all power politics. Ewen's ascension to the earldom will be a significant shift in the power structure of the kingdom of Kaldor. A knight of uncertain parentage comes out of nowhere and quickly becomes First Knight and royal vassal. Now within a year or two, he becomes an earl? What will he be two years later? Where is this all headed? People will start wondering. Especially the king. If he feels threatened, he will take whatever steps he feels necessary, law or no law. And unless the rest of the nobility has a reason to support Ewen, they'll be at his side.
User avatar
Goreg
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Medford, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Sir Baris wrote:I wasn't suggesting we torture a confession out of Vemion- rather that we torture a confession out of those around him.

Yes, I understood what you meant, but the point was no one else matters. Two parties: King, earl. Even the accuser is basically irrelevant unless of the same rank.

Sir Baris wrote:Not so much to get the law on our side and let the king handle it, but rather as a way to provide legal cover when we kill Vemion should any blame fall upon us.

There is no legal cover for a knight who kills an earl. If you get caught, expect to meet the business end of an axe.

Sir Baris wrote:If the king said something about it, our response could be, "What, his servants/vassal admitted in open court his plots against us? Would you tell these nobles gathered here they cannot defend themselves if they are attacked?"

The King's response would be something to the effect of you are expected to bring the case to me as the overlord of you both, not take the law of my realm into your owns hands. See axe, above.

Keep in mind this is a matter of power and politics, not law. The political consequences to Haldan of allowing a knight to get away with killing an earl - no matter under what circumstances - would imperil his throne. The only possible exceptions would be in a tournament or if on opposing sides in battle (q.v. Rebellion above).

Remember, a knight can kill a commoner with impunity and for no reason. At most, the penalty would be some sort of restitution, and then only of the victim was wealthy and/or powerful for some reason. It is no different a little higher up the social scale. The King would rightly see the murder of an earl as but a step away from his own murder. The stakes, dear friends, are very high indeed when one dices for a kingdom.
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:54 pm

Heh, Dave and I were typing basically the same thing at the same time. He just posted first. :lol:
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Goreg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:06 pm

Just to take things a step further--I don't believe we can be 100% sure that the king hasn't given Vemion permission and encouragement to kill Ewen. Halden doesn't seem to have that sense of initiative, but if he were to take steps, it would an easy train of thought. No fuss, no mess, no particular expenditure of resources on part of the Crown.
User avatar
Goreg
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Medford, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Goreg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:30 pm

Actually, the best way to get Vemion would be to somehow goad him to rebellion.

If we could convince him, possibly using the prince's liking for Ewen, that the king was now favoring Ewen, it might get him to do something rash.

I think any planning would need to be long-term, though.
User avatar
Goreg
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:08 am
Location: Medford, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Aeomund » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:50 am

So I have been thinking about this a little more. Is the plan for Ewen to ascend to the seat of Vemionshire anytime soon? I don't believe that that would really be in his best interests. If that is the case then what is the rush with Vemion?

Regardless here is an idea for my new plot.
We host the tourney on behalf of the wedding of the Earl of Vemion and as a good will gesture to restore peace to the Caldeth family. Ewen doesn't need to be sincere, people just need to think he is. We approach Prince Brandi's with the idea that the kingdom needs a distraction, Sir Ewen feels that it is within his bounds as FKoK to host a tournament and would also like to use the opportunity to heal the breach in his family.

Ewen would get the prestige for the tourney. If the Earl of Vemion shows up he increases Ewen's prestige and influence, if he doesn't show up he has lost prestige by snubbing a well meaning and intended good will gesture. Of course we couldn't kill him if he showed up, but we would know where he is. I think it's a win win.
User avatar
Sir Aeomund
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Aeomund » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:07 am

So in case I wasn't clear I think we make Vemion the guest of honor at the tourney.
User avatar
Sir Aeomund
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Baris » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:17 am

Interesting idea. This doesn't do much to solve the problem of Bresyn, though.
Vemion delenda est.
User avatar
Sir Baris
Squire
Squire
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Attleboro, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:47 pm

Probably worth exploring from a strategic point of view, however. To whit - what are the implications of Ewen becoming Earl of Vemion at this time? Thilisa has already stated she intends to control the purse strings, and presumably management of the earldom. However, that leaves any military aspect to Ewen along with the political responsibilities.

Of course, Ewen could challenge Thilisa here leaving him with the whole ball of wax.
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Lord Ewen » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:59 pm

Playing the long game is more consistent with our style so far (although we have come a long way in one Harnic year). However, Vemion remarrying with the intent of bypassing Thilisa has put us under time pressure, as once an heir is born the number of targets multiplies. Also, I believe we were feeling pressured by the double attacks (Longhals and Bernan), given that Vemion/Bresyn can theoretically keep throwing attacks our way with impunity unless we respond.

Having Ewen attain the earldom risks the king becoming unduly uneasy with the whole thing, etc. Changing our heretofore successful strategy of dodging attacks while advancing step by step, by rushing into an assassination of the earl and Bresyn, has its risks as well, though. Is there a middle strategy?

I need to think more about making Vemion the star of the tournament. The idea seems unmanly somehow. But I like the double bind it puts Vemion in.

What about making it a memorial tournament in honor of Thilisa's late mother??
User avatar
Lord Ewen
Baron
Baron
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:27 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Matt » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:58 pm

Sir Ewen wrote:What about making it a memorial tournament in honor of Thilisa's late mother??

That is diabolical!

Puts Vemion in a bind, and reminds everyone of his overhasty marriage. While most nobles will give him a pass on the need a male heir front, it is still a public reminder of the briefly lamented Lady Ialny.
User avatar
Matt
The GM
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Baris » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:41 pm

I liked the idea of making the tournament in honor of your wife's mother. That seems more socially acceptable than to honor a wedding you weren't invited to, and was not very public IIRC, as Earl's weddings go. Plus it digs at Vemion's craw a bit more. It's an accusation wrapped in a supposedly polite and well-meaning gesture.

And remember how this will play to the public/common folk. Who can blame you for acceding to your wife's demands to honor her mother, the poor thing, she must be a wreck. And pregnant, at that. Men have been known to great lengths to satisfy the strange demands of pregnant women. :)

Now, if only the tournament were the same time as she was due. Could we put Vemion in a PR bind, try to get him to acknowledge Thilisa or the child in some way? Here is his poor, banished daughter, only wanting to bring herself (and house, as it so happens, totally a coincidence) back into his fold. I'm not saying he'd have to make Thilisa his official heir (that would be the theoretical child of Bresyn after all), but bring her and her issue into back-up heir status, should anything happen to him and Bresyn.

Oh look, Vemion and Bresyn happened to die a month later.

(This PR bind thing doesn't have to happen at the tournament, could be much later, after we gain prestige from the tournament and perform other deeds).
Vemion delenda est.
User avatar
Sir Baris
Squire
Squire
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:55 pm
Location: Attleboro, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Aeomund » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:05 pm

The dead wife is to overt. He will know its a trap, no one even the most well intentioned would want to bring the hot new pregnant wife to a party commemorating the dead old wife. We make it Vemion's honor and make it known in private circles that we want peace. So on the one hand you will have an Earl who has banished his daughter and son in law and the son in law who mourns the family falling out circumstance has created. This works for us. We agree that the Earl having an heir would be difficult, but unless we want Ewen on the seat in vemionshire soon who cares?

In fact if Vemion believed the sincerity it would even be better. Putting Ewen on the seat in Vemionshire now is suicide, it's to destabilizing to the realm. My thought is we wait and continue to cultivate a relationship with the scions of the major houses. I think support among the baronial and royal house needs to be increased before another major change in station in undertaken. Besides even if the earl has an heir it will be years before he would assume the title. If Ewen plays this right, hosts a tourney for the good of the realm and attempts to mend the breach within his wife's clan we can score major points with the realm at large, put Vemion in a trap in which he needs to choose the lesser of two evils, and the prestige and knightly virtue of the First Knight of Kaldor will be worth more in the eyes of the baronial and gentle classes.

For wit, if Vemion doesn't show he looks like a quibbling ass. If he does show we know where he is and can try and insert someone in his retinue to find him later. If he buys it we have one less person hiring assassins.

If he no shows the award is presented in his dead wife's name. That will send the proper message to everyone. If he shows Sir Ewen parades his pregnant wife and the earl out before the realm and praises the peace and prosperity upon House Caldeth. Both the commoners and the Lords and Ladies love this kind of drama.
User avatar
Sir Aeomund
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Lord Ewen » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:02 pm

First, let me say that we are debating your original idea and my variation, but overall I think your idea of targetting Vemion more directly with the tournament is outstanding. We just need no maximize the impact, so by all means let's hash it out.

Having said that, my sense is that, in the case where Vemion is declared the guest of honor, there is essentially zero chance he will show up. Given that everyone knows that he has banished his daughter and Ewen from Vemionshire on pain of death, I doubt anyone would think any worse of him for spurning such a gesture. Sure, it looks churlish, but banishing your daughter is already major league churlish by comparison. And there would be no upside for him to show up that I can see, given that he's already set the tone for the family relatiionship and it would just show his resolution flagging rather quickly by giving in so fast. Ewen, being in the junior role here status-wise, would be seen as a bit pathetic and desperate for reconciliation, while Vemion would haughtily maintain his original decision to disown Thilisa, thereby looking resolute and implacable. Folks are unlikely to feel sympathy for Ewen as a result, however chivalrous the gesture appears, because it is also obviously self-interested.

On the other hand, making the tournament in honor of Lady Ialny has a different effect. Vemion might be just as unlikely to show up, but the impression is different if he stays away. Instead of spurning Ewen's reconciliation offer in the above scenario, he would be spurning his late wife's memory instead. People would either assume he is prioritizing snubbing Ewen over recognizing his late wife (which would indirectly inflate Ewen's apparent importance if Vemion acts like spurning this guy is more important than recognizing Lady Ialny), or they would assume he is ashamed to be seen with Lady Bresyn. Either way, it is more of a win for Ewen than the scenario in the above paragraph, and that's if he doesn't show up. Also, if Sir Ewen spends lots of his own cash to host a tournament honoring his late mother-in-law and Vemion remains implacable, he looks like more of a jerk given that Ewen's not asking for anything, but Vemion is not reciprocating the honor to his late wife with a softening of tone or some ofther concession. For these reasons, I believe there might be a somewhat higher chance that he would bite the bullet and show up.

As for the notion that Vemion would smell a trap in the Lady Ialny Memorial Tournament of Chivalry, I certainly grant you that. But I think he would see himself being named guest of honor as a trap as well. With the wife being the focus, however, maybe we can turn up the heat even higher. Perhaps the late Lady had a cause or religious devotion she espoused during her life, and we can publically invite Vemion to award a gift to that cause or chapterhouse or whatever as part of the ceremonies, making it look even worse if he fails to show.

Finally, by making Lady Ialny the focus, he really can't get away with ruining the affair to humiliate Ewen, which would be a greater risk when the tournament is a gesture of reconciliation from Ewen to Vemion.

Thoughts?
User avatar
Lord Ewen
Baron
Baron
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:27 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Aeomund » Wed May 01, 2013 7:17 am

May I suggest a donation to the Order of the Lady of Paladins.

Van,
Reading this again I think there is something worthwhile in mentioning the dead wife. Can this be done without making an enemy of your wife?
User avatar
Sir Aeomund
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Lord Ewen » Wed May 01, 2013 8:26 am

Well, there is no denying Thilisa is a difficult woman, but my hunch is that she will be okay with it. Although, since she became pregnant, she doesn't seem to like going to things, which could be an issue.

As a reminder, the relevant history is this. A few years back, when Thilisa was still Countess of Osel, her father struck her mother during a domestic dispute and put the mother in a coma. This estranged Thilisa from her father, whom she blamed for her mother's "illness", which is how the situation was discussed in public. Mother lingered for years under the care of the Peonians, I believe. Thilisa knows her mother has died (Ewen briefed her), and responded with normal grief, but we don't know whether she sees anything suspicious in the timing. I think she would like the idea of something honoring the mother and discomfitting the father, though. What do others think?

Also, come to think of it, I don't know if Thilisa knows about the hasty remarriage. In fact, how many people know of Vemion's marriage to Bresyn? We learned it, after all, from Ewen clairvoying Vemion. Should Ewen brief Thilisa on the marriage, and on the source of the fire which drove her from her boudoir? Might get her behind the tournament idea. Big picture question: how much do we want to involve Thilisa in the war with Vemion?
User avatar
Lord Ewen
Baron
Baron
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:27 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Vemion delenda est

Postby Sir Aeomund » Wed May 01, 2013 9:46 am

How much do we need her in the war with Vemion?

I think our strategy depends on if we are playing the long game or the short with Vemion. Regardless she should be told her father remarried. She should also be included in on the assassination info, or at least a portion of it. I think Ewen needs to spend some energy on her lest he become estranged from her. At least if we are in Tashal.
User avatar
Sir Aeomund
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:17 pm
Location: Weymouth, MA

PreviousNext

Return to Plots Have I Laid ...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron